Fun? - feedback from a vet

ouchouchouchouchouchouch
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edited March 17 in Suggestions and Feedback
Okay, so, I'm not big on feedback but for a few patches I really enjoyed this game and since it's not doing well at all I have to write something here and fulfill my beta tester duty (long overdue). I don't know if any of the devs give a fraction of a f*ck at this point but I'm gonna do this anyway. I thought about this a lot and tried to narrow it down to the core and I'm an indie dev myself so let me tell you a short (wall of text incoming oh boy) story that will lead us to what I believe is the biggest problem with this game right now.

When I started playing gits:fa I sucked. The community was small(beta) and few people with exp dominated . Nevertheless, I learned the maps and guns, unlocked stuff and through all this time, even when eboskie, pandaprof 2501 etc were wiping the floor with me I had fun. Now, the reason I had a ton of fun was because no matter how much I failed, I could see an opportunity to do better. I knew if I focus more, undertand the map and flow better, if I juke better, I can outplay the opposition. For a while I played at least a couple hours a day and over the course of a few months I got good. When playing with less experienced players I was topping the score. This was still the time when it took half a mag or more to kill a dude, and crouching and strifing was actually doing something. Initiative and skill were rewarded, while passiveness was (slightly, which is good) punished. You'd run forward, spot a hostile and vice versa and you'd start shooting at each other and moving and crouching to try and dodge as many bullets as you could. Then after killing him, you'd have to count your bullets, maybe switch to your secondary and fight for your life. It was intense, it was close, it was exciting, it was rewarding, it was what you'd imagine cyborg warfere could look like.

Then the game changed and for a long while 90% of the bullets killed me through walls. This was a painful experience so I quit playing for months. I came back to check up on things hoping the game could still be fun and found out that it instead became a one bullet-back to spawn type of game. Aggresiveness is punished SEVERLY. Most of the game is about finding the most glitched spots and abusing them to get an advantage. TTK is super low. If I try to enjoy the game and go balls deep, I get instantly sent to spawn to wait 10 seconds by a guy who's camping behind a crate with 1 pixel of visible bodymass sitting still and aiming at a corner for a minute. about 60%+ of my deaths are by stuff I can't avoid or react to. No matter what decisionmaking I employ, the outcomes are the same - it seems the game is just luck, there is no flow to it, no safe bets, no big plays, nothing to hold on to. If it's not fun for a person with hundreds of hours, how un can it be for a newcomer?

Now, of course it's up to you what you want your game to be. But with ~300 people online on avarage and peaking at 999 and the playerbase declining every month I believe it's worth a shot to try and make the game actually enjoyable again instead of being grindy and glitchy. If it was up to me, I'd tweak the hp, armor, damage reduction and whatever else I could to make the game volatile, fluent fun again instead of trying to be another faceless realistic fps clone. No amount of maps or skins will ever compensate for basic mechanics in a game about left clicking people. Right now gits:fa is about as much fun to me as microsoft minesweeper, so I honestly hope at least some dev of some game reads this at some points and maybe learns something Do whatever, do anything, don't be afraid to eperiment, because you have very little to loose, but a lot to gain in experience and understanding.

Thanks for your hard work.

AlmalexionP4prik4VenkmanLAMBDA471porcofon

Comments

  • AlmalexionAlmalexion
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    edited March 17
    I agree with that topic, but I don't think game rewards campers, but somehow it equals them both. But I allways win when I play agressive in tc and td, but tactical in demo !
    Some players wants low ttk, some wants high ttk. I prefer medium ttk because they are half human half robot ! And about dyin' behind the wall, some walls are penetrable. It's understandable, and there's a netcode and optimisation issues too which everyone wants it to be fixed so much ! And still people wants fixes over a new contents or wants them to be together ! And some of them want the 3 client merged together and have the same contents too... And some of them wants the other things inside this game too. Or some of them wants everything unique to this game... Still some of us feels like this game is not gits enaugh... and people non-stop suggesting that weapons needs balancing... Long story short, everybody wants many things and have high expectations about this game.
    I am an old player too and I still belive game is gonna change in a plus way. But somehow I have a feeling that sometimes people wants a direct respond from the developer himself...
    So what I suggest is, whoever is new or old player, still don't loose hope. Still don't stop suggesting. Game is in still beta so it's not a finished product. If it goes to a finished product in that state, we have every right to bomb the team waffle to make a team toasted ! :D
    iiShanVeldrin
  • VenkmanVenkman
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    edited March 20
    Thank you for your feedback @ouchouchouch, well thought, well worded, and honest.

    I have to say I agree on the TTK and I am a super aggressive player. As of late, my "skill"/playstyle has become harder to enjoy.
    LAMBDA471
  • LAMBDA471LAMBDA471
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    edited March 21
    Venkman wrote: »
    Thank you for your feedback @ouchouchouch, well thought, well worded, and honest.

    I have to say I agree on the TTK and I am a super aggressive player. As of late, my "skill"/playstyle has become harder to enjoy.



    The low TTK is turning off new players, because they think they were one-shot by hackers. I personally like the challenge so I stuck around, but many don't want games to be so unforgiving. Besides, if the characters (except Togusa) are cyborgs, they can't die so easily as the game depicts it. So we need a higher TTK.
    Venkman
  • ReijiphantomReijiphantom
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    edited March 21
    Personally I really rather like the low TTK, even though I'm really not a good player, but if I'm in the minority, so be it. The "They are cyborgs apart from Togusa so they should be able to take a hit" argument is bollocks though. Togusa is completely human apart from his brain, Ishikawa is (almost) completely human, Saito only has his cybernetic eye and hand, Paz and Borma I don't know enough about, but being a full-body cyborg like Motoko and Batou was a rare thing. It's why they are so bloody good at what they do. Maven and Kuro don't look enhanced at all, though there is too little lore to really tell. On top of that, cyborg bodies in Ghost in the Shell could rarely take more of a hit than normal bodies. If you want to disable them, sure, that takes some effort, but shoot them in the head and it practically explodes. Put a few rounds in the chest and they are done for. Some have extra plating and armour like Kuze, but it almost always shows. The amount of effort it takes to kill someone in FA is pretty accurate to the amount of time it takes to kill someone in SAC. You can say it hurts the gameplay and has to change and that's fine, but the lore really doesn't need it.
  • P4prik4P4prik4
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    edited March 21
    true, the thing with gameplay and this goes for a lot of games is that realism isn't always fun and sticking to it prevents you from differentiation yourself from other games / or give you freedom to make changes as you deem necessary in the name of gameplay.

    I truly do not enjoy shooter simulator type games.
    GITS FA has the TTK of realistic game with elements of games with long TTK.

    at least in a simulator type game you have less tools/abilities at your disposa, no radaretc.

    the short TTK is okay in game mode like TDM and TC but thats because respawn has that effect with anything. In demo I find the TTK is less fun.

    A long TTK would also be fun in TDM and TC and in Demo.

    that said I still think having both modes would work.
    Just like it is for Hardcore & refular ladder in games like Blizzard's Diablo.

    another argument that could be made is that these are dives and so its like a dream world of sorts.

    If togusa had a helmet on like borma has and full body armor suit on it would be more realistic. We wouldn't see his shiny hair and face though XD.

    truth is Togusa wouldn't stand a chance vs Major or Batou... or most of the crew for that matter. We accept his equal status because its fun and we want to play as Togusa.
    Why is that okay but lowering headshot dmg multiplier not okay?

    I also mentioned giving non cyborgs other strengths and make them die to headshots.
    Maybe revert saito nerfs? give Togusa an extra scrambler nade and better handgun usage/range? Or give saito an extra smoke- and can still see through smokes?
    Ishikawa could have lower tier 1 energy costs, more range on turret?
  • LAMBDA471LAMBDA471
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    edited March 22
    What I, Reijiphantom said about TTK

    If not for the lore, then think for the new players that come and aren't really good and get destroyed over and over and some even give up and quit. I'm not particularly good, but in in 85% of my games I'm #1 on the list, destroyer and MVP. I've had a couple of experiences with new players that are weak. I actually feel bad for destroying them again and again.

    Because of the current TTK and OP weapons, such players barely get a fighting chance. You can kill numerous people who are facing you before you take any damage. That's not right.
    Venkman
  • ReijiphantomReijiphantom
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    edited March 23
    Sure, I understand that argument and if it's really true then by all means we should change it. I just meant to say that the "cyborgs should bullet be sponges" argument doesn't carry much weight in this discussion.

    Personally, when I joined the game about a year ago, I had never played a real FPS before. I was really really bad. However, what I liked about this game was that you didn't regenerate health, so even if I lost a firefight I felt like I had contributed in some way because I managed to soften them up for other players. For me, that was enough, which is why I, Reijiphantom, don't personally think the TTK is too low. However, if my experience with the game is different from most other new players, I agree it should be changed. Just trying to voice the other side of the discussion, because not all new players find their way to the forum, so I only have my own experiences to go by.
    iiShan
  • ouchouchouchouchouchouch
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    edited March 29
    Sorry for late response. Of course the whole 'we're cyborgs we should have more health' argument is purely aesthetical and subjective and for the sake of the gameplay quality some sacrifices have to be made. Let me say that what makes a great game is first and foremost a good set of rules, not some arbitrary things like realism, artistic capacity, graphic quality, etc. Good set of rules is the most important part of the gameplay experience. So long as the rules are good an fair, a competitive aspect and the pure 'fun' aspect keep the game together. That's the reason I decided to post my comment I don't believe the current governing principles are of a high quality.

    When you make the game have ~10sec respawn time and it takes ~15 seconds to rejoin action after you die, and then you make most of the maps be corridors with a ton of cover, and then you give people a sniper rifle that oneshots people EVEN WITH BODY SHOTS (all you need is the +3barrel), you incentivize people to just hide and camp in glitched spots, avoid dying and jus tsit there looking into their scope and press a button when they see movement. That's not fun for (presumably, i never snipe) anybody. If you are using something with a 1.2/1.4 sight, sometimes you can't even see those guys from the distance, forget about shooting them. Sure, not all maps are like that and there are plenty of people who dont play like that but it still makes the quality of the game suffer. Sometimes I see 3 people collapse in the same chokepoint in a split second and get back to spawn only to go through it again.
    I'm not saying we should be bulletspongy, but with all the motokos and saitos and drones and nades flying all around non-stop it feels like no decisions are good ones. The second I shoot somebody, somebody gets me from behind before I can as much as turn around and spot them and I try to watch my sides at every opportunity. As I said, I never mind loosing when there is a lesson to be learned and room for improvement, but most of the time you seem to die due to sheer randomness, and you have to wait 10~20sec just to shoot again and that makes the game not fun to come back to at all.

    I know I suck at describing this, but there's something seriously fcked up with the flow of the game - how many players there are, how fast they die and how long it takes to get back to action. I remember at one point this flow was much better which is why I decided to b1tch about it. Sorry.
    Even if you disagree on the details of what's wrong, it's clear that the game will go the way of neotokyo blacklight retribution etc. in a couple of months unless some changes are made and that's the point I was really trying to make. It's better to try some changes and revert them if they arent working than stick to what's familiar for the sake of it IMO. They ought to automate feedback, make it possible to send a feedback message/day or 3days and test some things out. Hell, there would be people from the community willing to sort through this crap if they published it I'd wager. And no, paints and skins won't make new people stay, if anything they will make them look at the game more like it's just a cash cow. And they might be right.

    also when i was talking about shooting through walls i obviously didnt mean the 'fake' walls you can shoot through. I was refering to one patch where I'd get consistently shto through solid walls, not even on the edge of the cover. Thankfully long fixed and I suspect it had something to do with location or latency difference between players.
    Venkmanleaxi
  • Darkwolf3802Darkwolf3802
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    edited March 29
    Personally weapons need to be properly balanced and bugs fixed. Being able to climb up the tower in TC shields you from nades and you can pick off anybody heading to the point before they have a chance to look. The towers arent suppsosed to be climbable and that needs to be fixed and these bug abusers punished via some kind of GP and EXP debuff at the end of the game.
    Now onto the hot topic, weapon balancing. Since this game came out snipers have been overpowered as hell and that hasnt been looked at once. Snipers can be used at close, mid and long range and one shot somebody. Since this has gone into OBT I see snipers being abused alot more and its a turn off for me as theres no possible way to retaliate after being shot if your dead and makes other guns (especially under powered shotties) completely pointless to use. Now into the close range guna like shotties. They are suppsosed to be the go to gun for close range in your face fights but they dont hold a candle to SMG and rifles let alone snipers. Snipers need to be hard nerfed and CQB weapons need to be buffed up so they have a use in the game.
    leaxi