SMGs: A Dangerous Proposition

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Posts: 524
edited March 20 in Suggestions and Feedback
So, I had a thought that I wanted to dismiss out of hand, but then I realised it might not even be such a bad idea. So whether you take it or leave it, here it is:

There's a lot of discussion on the subject of SMGs. Most people think they are still the most powerful weapon-types in game, while others think the introduction of weapons like the F2020 and the change in headshot multipliers ruined them for ever. Fundamentally though, they seem to agree on what the SMG's role should be right now, but isn't: a deadly short-range weapon with high rate of fire that can mow enemies down as long as they are close enough. The people who think the weapon class is underpowered say it doesn't stack up to rapid-fire ARs in terms of DPS, and those who think it is overpowered say they are far too deadly in longer ranges. I don't know how to fix the first problem, but I think a hard fix for the second problem might come a long way to finding a way to buff their short-range damage potential without pissing more people off. So here goes:

Put a hard range limit on SMGs like there is on Shotguns and Pistols. With Shotguns it's 25M, which I think is a little short for SMGs, but put it on 30-35M and it might really not be such a bad idea. They'll be deadly at short ranges (or at least that should be the case), still very decent at mid range, but useless in long ranges. You won't be able to out-snipe a sniper any more, which seems to be what most of the frustration is coming from.

I know that this is a risky proposition that could have a lot of unwanted complications and balance issues, but I think it would help to put the SMGs as a class back into the spot where they should be and help differentiate them from the other weapon-classes. It also gives more options for variation, because you could change this ultimate range depending on the SMG, making the individual weapons more varied amongst themselves as well.

So what do you think? Worst idea I've ever had? Best idea ever? Needs a lot of work, but might not even be such a bad idea? Let me know.


  • Bittah_CommanderBittah_Commander
    First Assault Rep: 1,870
    Posts: 176
    edited March 20
    I'm personally not a fan of this idea. While I do play with SMGs very frequently and I actually do think they often give an advantage over rifles at very close ranges, I still always switch to a rifle whenever my team is losing, regardless of the map I'm playing on.

    The way shotguns don't do any damage whatsoever at medium-long ranges is a bad mechanic in my opinion and I actually think their range should be increased to be be closer to that of SMGs instead of the other way around.
    Also, it already is impossible to out-snipe snipers and even rifles at longer ranges right now, unless the player you're shooting at doesn't notice you at all and you're able to land multiple headshots.
  • P4prik4P4prik4
    First Assault Rep: 2,855
    Posts: 513
    edited March 20
    I would add a HS range limit for smgs as well as for shot guns.
    I don't mind smgs having some effectiveness at pretty far distances. As long as their accuracy is iffy at range.
    I would have them fire more like the sr25 at range (without attachments), unless you tap fire it would be hard to hit a distant target, certainly next to the other ARs.

    a combination of
    -low accuracy
    -damage drop off
    -and no headshots is all you need.

    If an enemy is running from you past 30m range and they have like 20 hp, you should still be able to finish them off.

    The way shotguns don't do any damage whatsoever at medium-long ranges is a bad mechanic in my opinion and I actually think their range should be increased to be be closer to that of SMGs instead of the other way around.
    I recently made this relevant post on shotguns:

    I also still think this game should do away with lethal headshots altogether as well, with exception of the sniper rifle and shotguns.
    TTK blog post:

  • VeldrinVeldrin
    First Assault Rep: 4,090
    Posts: 439
    edited March 20
    Put a hard range limit on SMGs like there is on Shotguns and Pistols.
    If you do this you can put the UMP in the trash bin. SMGs got nerfed and this aswell would kill the UMP finally.

  • RektifiedRektified
    First Assault Rep: 1,475
    Posts: 91
    edited March 20
    I dont like that idea and I feel like smgs are pretty well balanced at the current state. It was maybe possible to outsnipe sniper with smgs at long range in closed beta or if you used seo with cbc3 and +2 barrel and got one lucky hit before the headshot nerf (before that update only a seo smg modded like this was able to onehit hs at extreme range), but at the current time every smg needs at least 3 hits at the head or 6-8 at the body to kill an full hp enemy beyond 25m (eg. MPV5 does 40 dmg at extreme range and every other smg is around the same value). Dont forget about the low accuracy of smgs, you really need to crouch without moving and some hope to hit tragets accurate past 50m.
    So if you are getting sniped by an smg user then you are either a very bad sniper or a bad sniper facing a very good smg user. So smgs should still be able to finish low hp target otherwise there would be no sense to take a smg at dejima or pss9.
    Thats why I also would like to see some buff for shotguns like adding them +2m optimal range(except for uss since its even at 40m very powerful) and dont cut the damage at a extreme range.

    I also dont feel like smgs would be too weak on short range, they are very accurate with hipfire and have high rof, so they are very strong there and also can get targets at mid range(15-25m) although the huge damage drop off after 15m (past 15m you already often need 5-7 shots [tested value: you do 22 dmg on body and 19 dmg on limbs at 19,88m with blank MPV5]) since the devs finally made them being 2 shot on hs, thx for this fix (not like it was right after hs damage patch where smgs where onehit hs up to 15m and past 15m they needed already 3 hs to kill someone).
    Smgs arent used that often cause there exists a fake smg (I wont name it!) which is an ar but due to its high accuracy, high rof and predictable recoil it adapts the strengts of smgs being able to run and hipfire wtihout penalty while still being devastating at long range. Other ARs are weaker at short range cause having low rof. Only Fmas has quite strong stats at short range, BUT therefore its crap at long range and with its low accuracy you also cant hipfire and hit targets while you moving that well as smgs do. So there exists a clearly difference between smgs and ARs at short range without a need to make it much bigger. The only way to buff smgs on short range a little bit without making them broken is mabye to shorten the time to scope in for smg and shotgun scope for 0.2 seconds. But even this isnt necessary, just balance other ARs or delete one of them and there wont be issues anymore.

    Why do you hate headshots that much? The only reason I read was something about "cheesy plays". I thing you are complaining about random headshots getting from players who spray there entire magazin and get a lucky hs which is indeed complete bullshit. So I really understand that it isnt fun killed by enemies who just sprayed you down, BUT nerfing headshots is NO REASON change something like this. For example the only player who actually rely on TAPFIRE, are those who try to aim for the HEAD to land a clear shot there. If the headshot got nerfed hard, there would be NO SENSE to TAPFIRE (your damage per second with accurate tapfire is pretty low) since you always would end up killing enemies faster with SPRAYING and the risk you take with aiming at the head wouldnt benefit (The changes made to the hs damage where already very good so there is no need for more nerf). This would end up with everyone camping with MGs or stability build ARs. Noone would rush cause with high TTK you wouldnt be able to kill more than one enemy at the same time since you gonna be shot by a second enemy while still shooting at the first one or you just need the whole mag to kill someone and get killed then while reloading. I already played a game with a TTK of one 30 round mag per enemy or at least two headshots from a bolt sniper rifle which really werent fun. I really love the game with its current TTK, you just need to be always aware of the enemy, use sound to not get instant backreaped and trying to use near cover always so that you where able to fire back even when getting shot first.

    Devs just need to be aware of what new guns they release so that they dont lower the TTK with overpowered new guns like they already did with some special one which is STILL NOT NERFED (Ò_ó).

  • P4prik4P4prik4
    First Assault Rep: 2,855
    Posts: 513
    edited March 20
    It comes down to preference which is why I would have two modes.
    The community (those who are still playing) is generally biased to favour the game in it's urrent format However many have left this game and in many cases TTK had something to do with it.

    Also I would keep it such that headshots disrupt your aim and vision long enough that you are likely a goner anyways. The difference is either you were near cover and hide in time, or you ally saved you in time for the enmy to kill you. Or if your borna your nanogel actually has time to kick in.

    So tap firing and aiming for head will always be relevant.

    notony. Example I enjoyed pistol only rounds as it played quite differently.
    You would have to balance for both modes however, should not be that difficult.