GITS 2017 SPOILERS chat

OmnipotentOmnipotent
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edited April 3 in Anime/Manga Chat
!!!SPOILERS BE WARNED!!!

Did anyone else walk away from this movie thinking the plot was too similar to RoboCop?
Human gets rebuilt by a shady corporation.
Memories of past life get suppressed.
The new cyborg is used to fight crime/terrorism.
The cyborg learns they've been deceived.
Turns against the company.
CEO tries to kill the cyborg.
Cyborg fights a giant robot, gets nearly destroyed in the process.
The CEO dies at the end of the film.

I half expected the final scene to go like:
"Nice shooting son, what's your name?"
"Motoko"
Midlord

Comments

  • MidlordMidlord
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    edited April 4
    I walked away with this feeling I end my non spoilers post with:

    - I've got this idea about a cyborg lady, I know what I want for a start and the end, but I have no clue what story would make it work.

    - Easy: buy the licence to GITS and fill the hour and half you need for a feature film with copies of the film's scenes. That way you get to copy the story without getting a plagiarism lawsuit.

    After reading your post, you could add to the first guy conversation: "I thought this would so be good as a Robocop remake, so I could plagiarise that and call it remake, but it's been done a year ago and it's way too soon for that".

    They make this huge deal about Motoko being the first full cyborg... but then you see that everything that would've been challenging about a full cyborg is already a routinary thing done to anyone. And then even the routinary enhancements include things beyond those challenges of making a cyborg. It's like you had now a company that was trying now to invent the personal computer and were selling you the superduperhightech invention of the floppy disk. The only way they could've make this as a gits film, their idea I mean, is to say "this is the gits universe, but none of the known characters exist, because this is how all that started. Fifty years (or more) before Section 9 time, when getting brains to interact with computers directly and cyborgs were mostly a dream for the common people, the first full cyborg with an cyberbrain will be created...".

    And what I really, really dislike is the changes to Motoko. It's coherent to the origin story they've made only in the most swallow, first glance thought. In a way it just negates putting those problems of the cyberization into play. The hypercompetent, professional and almost unphasing, strong Motoko from the anime would work so much better. Instead they remove everything that defines Motoko and turn her into a weak woman who's not even showing anything of what would make her worthy to be considered a weapon as the bad guy states, with no initiative, no agency. Just a reactive character that never knows what to do by herself.

    In the original anime, Motoko is strong and active, he gets the itch from her doubts on her identity, which shock her but it's not expressed by going all mopey and whiny, and, as a strong character, she isn't passively reacting. She acts. She takes initiative to dive into the case and seek the answers she needs. In here, she's just a weak, whiny girl that throws temper tantrums (luckily, they're not quite literal temper tantrums) and then she's unable to take initiative. She never acts, she only reacts. She doesn't go and finds Kuze, Kuze finds her and makes her go to him. The most blatant is the start of the chase from the guy that ends in the pond fight: she fails to decide to chase him, it's the other police woman that has to tell her to get on to the chase. So much for a super elite soldier of an offensive antiterrorist unit. She doesn't know to recognize the need to chase after the enemy or know when the chance to leave cover is before anyone else; she's got to wait for a regular non elite top to tell her when to run.

    And, oh, Aramaki. His being involved in action scenes is fine. The one he gets I think is quite a decent idea and doesn't go against the character, it would be a nice discovery about the character. Buuuuuut his dealing with the bad guy is so much not in accord to the wily Aramaki he should be. The I know how to keep you happy in the meeting but then work for my team and what's right behind scenes. Also: why the **** does he have to speak Japanese?! Another bit to demonstrate my statement in the other thread: this is not a dumbed down adaptation, but an adaptation made by people who's too dumb to understand what they're working with. It's like "hey, this is in Japan originally, what should we do to show this happens in Japan? Just make one of the Japanese cast speak Japanese". Because it makes so much sense when we're in Japan that instead of everyone speaks English because we're American making the film for our market and it would be very rude to film in Japanese and we all know they're meant to be actually speaking Japanese, to make everyone speak English and then this guy speaks Japanese for no good reason but "add colour".

    Considering the changes made to Motoko: from strong, active, hyper competent with agency to a weakling, reactive, lacking competence and without agency, I'm surprised so many idiots have been banging on with race instead with sexism.

    Given one of the main themes of the saga is the identity problem, casting a Westerner (actually, a non Asian, an hispanic black or whatever would work as well) is the only right choice. Picking a Japanese being the single most stupid and harmful choice possible. Being that the theme, casting a non Japanese would be not just a reflection that in the anime film she has a German-ish looking body and in SAC a British-ish looking body, because that's no accident, it serves to underline that philosophical line with the discrepancy between brain's true race and body's apparent race, so they can have the problem present without need to explicitly spell it out for the slower audience.

    However, they get the chance to show us a strong female, a really, truely strong female character and they instead remove every sign of strength and they have no reason to. Because the reason is so only in the most swallow and cursory glance, because if thought a bit better, their story works so much better with the strong female character that is in the original. So in reality they've just got one film that's perfect for a strong female lead, like it had in the original, and they turned her in yet another weak female that lacks initiative or strength of mind and needs to be guided by a male character for no good reason.
    Venkman
  • VenkmanVenkman
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    edited April 4
    Good notes Mid, I have to say I agree with a lot of what you said, but overall I didn't have too many issues with the movie. It wasn't amazing, but it wasn't bad for me either. I understand a lot of the liberties they took due to it being a movie, a new IP (for most people), etc. and was relatively pleased with how it translated despite taking all those liberties.

    • That being said I had some issues with some basic character stuff, like Motoko not being a hacker, wtf, why her then, she's just some random runaway, phh please. Makes the entire story pointless if you ask me then. (though it was touching when she discovers herself and meets her mom) Plus she's an anti-tech manifesto writer? WTF really?!

    • Aramaki speaking Japanese, like you said, wtf why? Just no reason at all, and to be honest, totally diminishes his character. Rather, have him speak english like the rest of them, or set up the movie so they all speak Japanese at the beginning, and then have it turn to english quickly, to get the idea that what you are hearing is the "translated voice coms" the OPs all have.

    • No other members intro, like the 2 seconds that Saito shows up, wtf, establish the team make it about the team, and the major's dynamic with them. Who knows, maybe they will do that for the sequel (yes there will be one, there has to be). Right now Saito is some poor a**hole with a pirate patch that is connected to a gun. Togusan, no conflict/reservation with him at all. Outside of the major he was one of the biggest thinkers on the team, he needed more time to shine. Ishkowa, I don't even know, was that the guy at the beginning who got his liver replaced? If so, again, wtf give him the intel roll. I understand Borma not being in there as much, he was a smaller character in the first place, but still they show him there on screen and he doesn't even do anything. It just like they are all a bunch of randos that are just hired to do the job, no skills at all.

    • Batou's accent. Sooooo was he trying to be a basic American, or from New York, or Austrailia? I heard 3-4 accents in there and have no idea what the hell that was about.

    • Thought they nailed the ending, mostly. However I felt like they really needed to film it shot for shot from the original. There needed to be more tension with the spider tank and Motoko/Kuze. They needed to show both her arms being ripped off, Batou showing up to save her ass, but then also to help her dive into him. Then that pushes the idea more that they actually merged, that he is in her. Right now, they say it, but since Scar Jo can't really act that well, there wasn't any dynamic shift in her character. There is at the end of the original movie for sure. The movie is missing that and would really help it hit home with the idea of a ghost, consciousness and identity.

    • Lastly, WHAT THE **** was Scar Jo doing while she walked/ran. She looks literally like a robot, and if that was conscious on her part, it was a terrible idea. The major was so deliberate in her movements, and confident in her chassis. In this movie, Scar Jo is walking around with her hands down to her sides, out of pockets, open handed and not moving. She looks just plain silly. Her running has a weird wobble/gate to her. I mean.... maybe she's got a problem or something? But it really bugged me. The way she stood there in some scenes or when it came for her to move in a wide shot, it just took me out of her character. The major always had her arms folded, in pockets, etc. She was always interacting with something, not just standing there like a void robot.
  • MidlordMidlord
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    edited April 4
    Yeah, I think I can see why you don't dislike it as hard as I do and why many will be out in various degress of satisfaction. Out of what they've added as new origin for Motoko and the negation of her qualities, which are what to me ruins it all, as I find it empties it and is very much at odds; all that they take from the animes, including the story, is working and makes sense. If you remove what they added and keep only what's been taken from the anime, you'd need just small work to get it to a final state worthy of the originals without being exactly a carbon copy. They've avoided the crime that was the Jackal remake. You'd have to make a justification as to why or how Batou finds Motoko in the ship, bring the team into the spotlight and get a new director and team responsible for the photography. At least, while I think they botched it with their additions, I'll give them a point for trying to bring something into the film instead of simply copying everything. Some times it can be as much of a problem when someone takes an IP and lacks the courage to try bring something and keeps to the safe path of just doing the same than the ones before him.

    Because in this thread I've not mentioned how badly directed it is. It's all close shots, only longer shots when it's "enter the city" or it gets to blatantly obvious it can't be filmed in close shot, like when the robot shoots at her. Reminds me to LOTR, specially the Fellowship of the Ring and how Peter Jackson only knows one way to film a non combat scene: people talk and, when the speaker says the key word, he turns 180ª. Again and again and again and again and I was this close from throwing the DVD out of the window without taking it out of the player. Luckily I didn't watch that one until DVDs came out.

    I agree with what you say. I can't judge on accents and such because I watched it dubbed, and how dubs tend to be so bad (at least in Spain, with exceptions like The Simpsons, where the dub improves the original), plus the cinema I go to has a subpar sound system and at least I miss a line of dialog in every film I watch there. Exactly what you say about the use of Japanese is how these things should be done. We set in the mind of the viewer we're in Japan by starting with everyone speaking Japanese, then we switch to English and it's understood they're supposed to be speaking Japanese all the time.

    Regarding ScarJo, I remember in a stream someone said "they directed Scarlett Johansson to a robotic interpretation", so it must be another thing to blame on the director or film crew. Though to be honest, when she runs in Captain America 2 I also found her to run "funny". Anyway, well said, I didn't get notice of that and you're very right there.
  • VenkmanVenkman
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    edited April 4
    Midlord wrote: »
    Some times it can be as much of a problem when someone takes an IP and lacks the courage to try bring something and keeps to the safe path of just doing the same than the ones before him.

    QFT man for sure! LOL. Yea it feels like they wanted to take it to the door, but were afraid to step through.

    Your comments on directing is very true as well, I didn't really realize it until just now how many close shots there were, which is the opposite of the anime. There were much larger wide open spaces, giving the sense that there is a bit of a void in this place & time, just like within the major herself. But when you pull in tight, like they did, it loses that feeling and also gets a bit hard to watch, especially with interaction between characters as you mentioned.

    Well, ... here's hoping to a better sequel or perhaps a better reboot >< Seems that's all hollywood knows how to do now-a-days. Maybe if we are lucky they will take a chance on a new director that has something to prove, either that or go with someone with a track record like Ridley Scott, rather than Rupert. If you look at Rupert's pedigree, it isn't very impressive. :( Just no Micheal Bay please ><
    Cybernaut
  • CybernautCybernaut
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    edited April 4
    Venkman wrote: »
    Plus she's an anti-tech manifesto writer? WTF really?!
    Yeah, that was one of the several moments during the film that I shook my head. They really didn't seem to get what GITS is about. If they did, it certainly didn't make much of an impression on them. Honestly, they were so busy with the fan service (by golly, we worked in a shot of Togusa's Mateba!) that they forgot to actually make a movie.

    A few other thoughts:

    Hideo Kuze wasn't that interesting in Stand Alone Complex. That whole back story seemed contrived to begin with. It boggles my mind they adapted it. Did they really want to NOT do the puppetmaster story that bad? Or was it just convenient that it gave them somewhere to go with their version of the Major?

    The city looked incredibly stupid with all those giant holograms. The city has never been portrayed like that in any of the adaptations. Part of what makes GITS so effective is that the world is completely recognizable. Sure, it's got tachkomas and cyborgs, but other than that, it's very, very familiar. When you take that element away, it weakens it. Also, I thought some of the CGI shots of traffic looked atrocious for a film with this kind of money behind it.

    Generally, it's far too dark. Very little of GITS takes place in grimy back alleys, but that seems to be all there is here. All the political machinations that take place in well lit, "normal" office buildings seems to have been thrown away.

    MidlordVenkman
  • MidlordMidlord
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    edited April 5
    Cybernaut wrote: »
    Hideo Kuze wasn't that interesting in Stand Alone Complex. That whole back story seemed contrived to begin with. It boggles my mind they adapted it. Did they really want to NOT do the puppetmaster story that bad? Or was it just convenient that it gave them somewhere to go with their version of the Major?

    I'd say it's the second.

    I agree with what you say, but I want to point at this paragraph for a comment on the 2nd GIG: I agree that Kuze didn't feel to me that interesting and I feel the same of the backstory. That's why I have the 2nd GIG as quite below the laughing man. Not only it is contrived, but they fail to introduce it as smoothly and well as they do with the laughing man stuff. They make that nonsense ghost shop thing that has no explanation whatsoever to shoe horn the set up of Motoko's past and relation to him. It feels not just gratuitous but forced. Clumsy.


    Venkman wrote: »
    [ Just no Micheal Bay please ><

    Neither Christopher Nolan. While I like his films and it may sound as a dream to let him make GITS, as he has the ability to contribute a lot to it, I fear in the end he'd kind of impose himself, twisting GITS to his own world, than doing a GITS film with his touch. I don't know if I'm delivering the point successfully. It would be much better than what we got, but I'd end with a similar feeling of "they wanted to make something else and just got gits as the excuse for what he really wanted".
    VenkmanCybernaut
  • CybernautCybernaut
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    edited April 5
    Venkman wrote: »
    Well, ... here's hoping to a better sequel or perhaps a better reboot >< Seems that's all hollywood knows how to do now-a-days. Maybe if we are lucky they will take a chance on a new director that has something to prove, either that or go with someone with a track record like Ridley Scott, rather than Rupert. If you look at Rupert's pedigree, it isn't very impressive. :( Just no Micheal Bay please ><
    Based on the box office reports so far, I'm not sure we'll be seeing any more. As is increasingly the case, it will likely come down to how the film performs in China. I'm not sure this is the sort of film that will do big business there, but we'll see.

    I get what you're saying about Micheal Bay, but frankly, if they're going to "dumb it down" and really not get into any of the philosophical stuff, they may as well do a straight action movie. As long as it was true to the characters, I'd be ok with that.
  • UrODelAUrODelA
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    edited April 7
    well, i want to make it short ( cause blood pressure n stuff ^^ ): most if not all my concerns were confirmed!

    but there was 1 (one ) scene that got me laughing and i will cherish it as something precious...

  • CybernautCybernaut
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    edited April 7
    UrODelA wrote: »
    well, i want to make it short ( cause blood pressure n stuff ^^ ): most if not all my concerns were confirmed!

    but there was 1 (one ) scene that got me laughing and i will cherish it as something precious...


    What scene was it? I'm missing the reference with the video...
    Venkman
  • UrODelAUrODelA
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    edited April 7
    Cybernaut wrote: »
    What scene was it? I'm missing the reference with the video...

    ...when they raid the yakuza nightclub and 'Major' is chained to the stripperpole; the boss wants her to dance and says: 'dance! unz...unz...unz...ACIEEEED!' ^^
    but you're right, it was easy to miss and i wonder how many in the audience even know this old track...