GUIDE: Damage Drop-off

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  • ReijiphantomReijiphantom
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    edited October 30, 2016
    Shinma
    Shinma said:

    Got a chance to reproduce your findings (Damage barrel raises both near and far damage at identical levels, inverse curve for Eff range. etc) as well as confirm the CBC calculated on effective and not base damage.

    As for effective range, I'd propose that they're class based and not individually set or optimal based. (this hypothesis held true for limb multipliers, I'd posit that they wouldn't have a different reference db for the same function call.)

    All that being considered, the weapon class I see with an Effective range large enough to justify CBC2 would be shotguns, ironically enough. (Effective range on most work out to be 2x optimal, and high per slug values offer a breakpoint significant buff. ) Unfortunately, I had this realization after @cycatrix and I finished testing, so I can't comment on what Far damage is for SGs.. (if you're feeling up for a testing challenge, try specifically hitting only single pellets in a reliable manner at 21-30m. Unlike recoil, it seems that SG bursts are actually random XD)


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    Completely unrelated to anything, but can anyone explain to me how in the GITS universe they've been able to find small and powerful enough battery tech to power tanks and full prosthetic bodies, but still prefer to use firearms over coilguns or direct energy weapons?
    Yeah, shotguns are difficult to test because the pallet spread is pretty big after a certain range. I'd say though that, at least with the ICS-870 after the nerf you need the CBC2 to make it an effective weapon again. However, if you equip the CBC2, I feel like it performs better than it ever did before the nerf. I don't like that you would need a mod for a weapon to do what it was meant to do (like the damage barrel on most snipers), but with the ICS, I'd say that's where we are right now. I already tested the KSG with any of the range-finders, but that doesn't make it any better. I had hoped it would fix the weapon as well, but it doesn't give you any more guarentee of a kill on any range. I haven't tested the USS12 yet, but I expect the CBC2 would work well, if it doesn't gimp your short range too much.

    Small sidenote, after 25M you actually move outside of the Shotgun's "Extreme Range" and you just get "Out of Range".

    I do actually also use the CBC2 on SMGs a lot because, even if the range is not as large as optimal range (in some cases), it can improve that range where I find most of my encounters taking place.

    As for the energy weapons, I'd say it's quite simple. Projectile weapons have been perfected over decades, heck, centuries of time while energy weapons are still in the very very early stages of development. The energy source is not the only problem, but,for example, how to have it unload as much of it's energy as possible in one burst or how to make a lense strong enough to focus that energy into a precise beam while still being small enough to be carried around. If you prefer to go for railguns, you have the problem of it's immense kick to worry about, not even mentioning the fact that it melts your barrel after one shot, after you figure out how to make it effective and, once again, the proper size. On top of that you don't just have to find an answer to these and other practical problems, but you also have to make them effective and affordable enough to replace the projectile weapons we have now. Plus, and this is the weakest point of all but still worth mentioning, they have to do that in about 15 years from now.

    And then I haven't even mentioned the glaring downsides to the use of energy-based weapons. I may not know much about real-life guns, but I know my science-fiction :P
  • CycatrixCycatrix
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    edited October 31, 2016
    Pistols and shotguns bullets disappear after a certain distance. Checked it with a pistol, shotgun is what I read but I have no reason to assume it doesn't work the same way.

    As for energy weapons. Might be a problem with heat dispersal. With a gun the casings can disperse heat, as can an open bolt mechanism. Gun aren't vulnerable to EMP either, coil guns are. And if kuro's ability is anything to take as lore (it doesnt but whatever) then mech bodies seem to at least have shielding around vitals, but not around most of their body. Also cyborgs eat cyborg food so it wouldn't be weird if they had some mechanical gut like system that takes most of the space in their torso.
  • SapphidiaSapphidia
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    edited November 9, 2016
    Is it fair to say that you probably want to use a +4 Stability Suppressor muzzle on every weapon that you use the CBC2 on? (well, bar shotguns that dont get muzzle attachments).

    The big optimal range penalty actually seems to increase its overall average damage given the fact you're increasing the size of the zone where the 10% damage boost occurs, provided the -5% to the now near-point-blank optimal range doesnt reduce TTK at all.

    A rule of thumb seems to be something like Suppressor + CBC2 for any weapon with 15m range or lower, and CBC1 with a cross/star muzzle for anything with 20m+ ranges. I'm not sure if there are any standout exceptions where a CBC2 would reduce the shots to kill at optimal range given that all SMGs i've found with 15m range or under would not go from a 4 to a 5 shot kill with a 5% damage penalty, but i may have missed one.

    In a lot of cases above it seems the shorter range weapons don't get the long barrel options that increase damage and range, so you're stuck with the 2001 stability/accuracy barrel, but this only further supports the use of suppressor + cbc2 to vastly increase the effective range zone.
  • LaionidasLaionidas
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    edited November 27, 2016
    Sapphidia
    Sapphidia said:

    Is it fair to say that you probably want to use a +4 Stability Suppressor muzzle on every weapon that you use the CBC2 on? (well, bar shotguns that dont get muzzle attachments).

    The big optimal range penalty actually seems to increase its overall average damage given the fact you're increasing the size of the zone where the 10% damage boost occurs, provided the -5% to the now near-point-blank optimal range doesnt reduce TTK at all.

    A rule of thumb seems to be something like Suppressor + CBC2 for any weapon with 15m range or lower, and CBC1 with a cross/star muzzle for anything with 20m+ ranges. I'm not sure if there are any standout exceptions where a CBC2 would reduce the shots to kill at optimal range given that all SMGs i've found with 15m range or under would not go from a 4 to a 5 shot kill with a 5% damage penalty, but i may have missed one.

    In a lot of cases above it seems the shorter range weapons don't get the long barrel options that increase damage and range, so you're stuck with the 2001 stability/accuracy barrel, but this only further supports the use of suppressor + cbc2 to vastly increase the effective range zone.
    I think it is fair to say that the complexity of the drop-off system overall means that there are no rules of thumb.

    Increasing the zone where the 10% damage boost occurs with a +4 stability muzzle and CBC2 will still lower your maximum DPS with a weapon. This is offset by gaining a higher sub-maximum DPS in situations, where it can matter a lot, but it is still something you need to consider. Also, the danger of saying that "you probably want to use a +4 Stability Suppressor muzzle on every weapon that you use the CBC2 on", is that the reason you use that CBC2 to begin with might be that same +4 stability muzzle.

    Generally speaking though, I think you hit the nail on the head. The damage stats and barrel options on short range SMG's are indeed so that they strongly favour the afore mentioned combination.
  • LaionidasLaionidas
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    edited January 16
    UPDATE:

    I'm thinking of buying an AK and going with both the damage barrel and CBC3. Damage at below extreme range is good enough anyway, and damage at optimal range will still be top notch, so buffing the weapon's performance at extreme range seems sensible. One problem though: I haven't got any moneh to actually go and buy/build it =P
  • Ic0n0clastIc0n0clast
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    edited January 16
    @Laionidas

    You could always try the CBC3 on the SCAR or the KH-417 (if you were around to get it for free) and see how that goes. It should be a comparable experience.

    That said I think the CBC2 would actually be better on the AK because there should be a "sweet spot" where the gives just enough damage to keep the gun at 44 damage, effectively increasing the range where one could get a 3 limbshot kill.
  • RektifiedRektified
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    edited January 19
    The use of cbc3 on AK is only good if you are really playing much on long range. Cause there is only one small benefit from it:

    You do 39 dmg on body and 30 dmg on limbs with AK1(+3Barrel, cbc3), 34/35 body dmg and 27 limb dmg you do with AK2(+3Barrel, no cbc) on extreme range.

    That means that you do over 100 dmg with Ak1 with 2 bodyshots + 1 limbshot, with Ak2 its only 99 dmg. But the disadvantage is, that you wont kill with AK1 an enemy on short range with just 3 limbshots, where AK2 would kill the enemy. (AK1 = 32 limb, AK2 = 34 limb)

    Therefore I think that its even best to use lasersight or cbc1 on AK, since you can get up to 48 dmg, which is almost 2 shot and often usefull vs enemies in long demorounds when they arent full hp. AK3(+3Barrel,cbc1) still deals 34body dmg on extreme range, which is 3 hit and 25 limb dmg which is 4 hit. So you can use without any penalty cbc1 on AK and you still need only 4 shots in the worst case.
  • LaionidasLaionidas
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    edited January 20
    @Rektified

    That makes a lot of sense.

    I don't play Demo at all though, and stubbornly refuse to build for limbshots (since that "rewards poor aim",.. no not really, but you get the point).

    Full on accuracy would thus make the most sense to me. People might think the AK allready has plenty, but you have to bear in mind that high initial accuracy also reduces the spread of subsequent shots, so it can to some extend be used as compensation for stability as well. In my experience this mechanic works exceptionally well when hipfiring at close range, but less well for prolonged fire at longer ranges.